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September 26, 2021

Civil liberties perspective

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A letter to my vaccine-hesitant friends

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Matcham Caine, Byron Bay

I wish to provide a civil liberties perspective on the novel coronavirus health crisis, given the feelings of some that the decision to vaccinate, or not, need only be considered in regards to their own body. If this applies to you, know that your decision is not that simple.

Civil liberties are never absolute, because the rights of one have a habit of impacting on the rights of another. So, for example, freedom to avoid vaccination has to be weighed against another’s right to a safe workplace, safe access to public facilities, and so on. It is for this reason that the NSW Council for Civil Liberties and other groups advocate for a balanced approach to rights and responsibilities.

That said, note the reluctance of even a desperate federal government to mandate vaccinations. It is broadly considered a step too far in sacrificing personal liberty. You do ultimately have the choice of not vaccinating. But don’t pretend it is your right to think only of yourself, and don’t complain when others exercise their right to a vaccine passport (or whatever it turns out to be) so that they can go about their lives without worrying about the impact your choices may be having on their wellbeing.

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  1. Dressed up as balanced approach concludes with trash narrative of good vaccinated people worrying about the bad unvaccinated.

    Why the concern – why would ‘science and the authorities’ not want unvaccinated control groups to determine the long-term effects of biannual boosters.

  2. Siva, I think it’s reasonable to suggest that vaccinated people will want some protection from the presence of the unvaccinated because, this accidental control group is more likely to be infected and more likely to pass infection on. It’s irrelevant whether those involved are good or bad.

    I also can’t understand why so many of those who choose not to get vaccinated are so hell bent on dissuading others. I’ve read of certain groups persuading people to make appointments and not keep them so there is vaccine wastage.

    If you don’t want the vaccines because they are new and we don’t know the long term effects, or if it’s because you don’t like the”poisonous” ingredients, does it really matter to you if others take it up. I would have thought it was in your interests to have your choice protected by a large population of vaccinated people taking part in a huge trial for your later assurance. Even if it’s only to get to those Doherty targets so there will be more pressure on state governments to ease restrictions. More vax is, on a number of fronts, surely in your interest even if you don’t partake.

    It seems more like religious zeal that rational thought to me.

    • Our health experts are fighting a virus that’s never been isolated from the human body according to our CSIRO and 82 instititutions world-wide with a vaccine that does not work. Australia is clearly showing the world The Way. It redeployed its troops from fighting the Taliban terrorists in Afghanistan to imposing martial law in Australian suburbs.
      But there’s light at the end of the tunnel for the locked down and curfewed Sydney people. Our dear Scot Morrison has told the government he’ll wind down The Spread so it can slowly re-open the economy – on condition that State Premiers allow companies to compel employees to be guinea pigs for risky injections and that companies refuse service to the non-guinea-pigged. The government will continue to trot out before the TV cameras its Scary Premiers close to the children’s bedtime… The Stuff of Nightmares…

      • Dear Moderator, I tried posting the text below late last night. Somehow I don’t think it got through.

        Fact check on Theo’s post: “Our health experts are fighting a virus that’s never been isolated from the human body” WRONG

        Reported on 11 Jan 2020 from The Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, University of Minnesota
        “Earlier this week, [Chinese scientists] announced that they had isolated and fully sequenced the virus” and that resulted in a flurry of analysis as reported on 11 Jan 2020. *
        And within 2 months it was isolated in Australia as reported in the Medical Journal of Australia on 5 March 2020 **

        Fact check on Theo’s post: “a vaccine that does not work” WRONG
        Apart from the many medical studies in peer reviewed journals that report good levels of protection from the various COVID vaccines, I sometimes undertake a simple calculation to imply the real time effectiveness of the vaccine in a population. Using data reported by health authorities in various jurisdictions regarding the number of vaccinated and unvaccinated people who (a) have COVID, or (b) are in ICU with COVID, or (c) died with COVID, together with the percentage of people partially and fully vaccinated, one can obtain a reasonable estimate of protection that one and two doses of the COVID vaccine provides from each of these events: getting COVID, the need for ICU to manage COVID, or COVID death. These calculations are from current real live data (eg from NSW) and show similar levels of protection as the reported medical studies.

        * https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/01/china-releases-genetic-data-new-coronavirus-now-deadly

        ** https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/lab-that-first-isolated-coronavirus-in-australia-shares-how-it-was-done

    • The New Corona Religion Is A Faith Without Atonement
      To ‘pay’ for their own sins, the zealots of the new Corona Religion are on a mission to sacrifice the reputations and livelihoods of others and as yet unbeknownst to its new members, sacrificed of reputations and livelihoods of themselves.
      So, how is the Corona Cult similar to a Religion? Well, it has a CORE SET OF BELIEFS that you cannot question and must remain in the tribe with myths that aren’t subjected to normal academic scrutiny and ARE CENSORED. One of it’s SACRED TEXTS is the presumed fragility AND POWERLESSNESS of your immune system. It’s LIKE THE IDEA OF ORIGINAL SIN. Another SACRED TEXT is that all other Religions are False and only the Corona Religion is True.
      It has SACRIFICIAL RITUALS, such as Mask Wearing, Social Distancing, Lockdowns and the Destruction of Small Businesses and Educational Pursuits which are akin to a FORM OF SELF-FLAGELLATION. It has its de-facto PRIESTS AND PROPHETS who “follow the science” to enlighten us and initiate us into this new Corona Religion by preaching it daily on our beloved idiot boxes and smartphones, called “smart” because they appear to smarter than most of their owners. These devices show a new way of viewing everything about the world, and we must adopt these views without caveats or questions. The Prick or Jab is its BABTISM RITUAL and the vaccine passport will be your CONFORMATION RITUAL. Then you will become a fully Paid-up Member of the Corona Religion. You see, the whole process was just as easy and painless as having your cake and eating it too.
      Of course, like every religion, the new Corona Religion has to have its Heretics and Pagan Non-Believers and this Corona Religion is no exception. They are called Conspiracy Theorists, Anti-vaxxers, Anti-maskers and a host of other Derogatory Terms which I prefer not to name just in case I will be deemed to be one of them.

      • Theo, I think I can speak with some authority on religious indoctrination having experienced 13 intensive years of it at school. So please don’t think you are enlightening the blind, the blind that you hope will one day see 🎵 The lost who might still yet be found 🎶

        I recognise all the pertinent language and methods in the scamdemic lexicon and it’s scary.

  3. There is no evidence to suggest the vaccinated are less likely to be infected and less likely to pass infection whatsoever. Current evidence suggest every body (jabbed or otherwise) carry the same virus load for transmission.

    That is why you don’t need to fear the unvaccinated Liz.

    Remember – the jab is designed to make symptoms less serve.

    That’s it, very simple. Otherwise you are contributing to the fear and division.

    Love all.

  4. “There is no evidence to suggest the vaccinated are less likely to be infected and less likely to pass infection whatsoever. Current evidence suggest every body (jabbed or otherwise) carry the same virus load for transmission.”

    Can I ask why the Echo moderator is happy to leave this statement unchallenged?

  5. I agree with Liz L that Steve’s incorrect asserion regarding lack of vidence vaccines reduce transmission ought to be moderated. On the CDC website: “A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.”
    Any investigation of credible scientific sources will reveal the mounting evidence.
    I’m all for letting people express their opinions but against letting them publish misinformation – and the claim “no evidence” is simply untrue

  6. Hi Heather and Liz,

    The CDC updated their advice (July 30,2021) after the recent Massachusetts Covid-19 out-break. I find it helpful to cite research and dates etc.

    CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly report July 30, 2021 noted 74% of cases of infection occurred in fully vaccinated persons. Of those that required hospitalisation 80% were vaccinated. This prompted the CDC to reverse it’s decision on mask’s in indoor public settings and re-instate advice that masks should be worn regardless of vaccination status.

    The report also noted that there is “no significant difference between the Ct values of samples collected from breakthrough cases and the other cases. This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar. However, microbiological studies are required to confirm these findings.” This is only one report however, from one particular region and I think the most telling part of the CDC website says “What we are still learning”.

    Safe to say that we have a long way to go on the unknowns.

    What is becoming apparent, is that the vaccine efficiency is reducing. CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walenskyand said this last week “The data we will publish today and next week demonstrate the vaccine effectiveness against SARS CoV-2 infection is waning, and even though our vaccines are currently working well to prevent hospitalizations, we are seeing concerning evidence of waning vaccine effectiveness over time, and against the Delta variant.”

    Infections are still very prevalent in countries with high vaccination rates (i.e. Israel ). How infectious you are once vaccinated is one thing, severe symptoms is another. Recent Israeli data (Division of Epidemiology, Public Health Services Israel Weekly Covid-19 data 11/08/21 ) suggests that vaccine effectiveness against severe disease has also fallen over time among adults 65 and older who haven’t received a booster shot. Will you be protected after the 3rd shot, 5th or 10th shot?

    BTW – typical infections of vaccinated persons are not counted anymore according to the CDC. The CDC changed their definition of breakthrough infections for vaccinated persons on 1 May, 2021 to now only include vaccinated people who are hospitalised or die from Covid-19 (CDC Health Dept – Breakthrough case investigation and reporting).

    It would be helpful if you could please provide the sources you reference regarding effectiveness of preventing virus transmission and the mounting evidence from credible sources. Knowledge is more powerful when shared, not censored.

    Thanks in advance.

    • I tried to Steve, twice, but for some reason the moderator doesn’t want to publish these. You seem to be a favoured contributor!

      I have also said in the past past that I am not to into a volume of links or cut and paste posting competition by us amateurs. Like it’s some kind of tug-a-war. I merely ATTEMPTED to give a couple of citations in response to your claim that “there is no evidence whatsoever…”

      Yes we are always learning, especially those undertaking true scientific endeavour.

  7. Thanks, Heather but my post was in response to the moderator’s decision to censor two attempts I have made to answer the post by Steve, addressing me personally about this issue.

    I’m finding it a bit mystifying how these decisions are made. More mystifying is that when I attempt posts that are clearly meant just for the moderator’s consideration, these are posted for all, while the public ones are not.


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