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May 18, 2022

Vax the child

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I am writing about the upcoming COVID-19 vaccinations for children. I am and remain a vax-sceptic. My reasons are many, but hinge around the fact that we are still [within the time frame of] a provisionally approved medical product.

So, if for no other reason, that is good enough to say, ‘Let us adults, driving this experiment, take any consequences… but not our children!’

But I see two other driving imperatives. They are; first, that children are barely affected by covid, especially in terms of fatality. Around two per cent of children are infected, they are 20 per cent of the population see (www.health.gov.au) and to the covid deaths by age group. And then try to count the numbers… it’s impossible… the colour barely shows on the graph!

The second argument used to promote vaxxing them is so we can stop them transmitting to us… the adults. Okay, let’s get factual. What about transmission? In The Lancet (www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00258-1/fulltext), ‘transmission may be equal between the vaccinated and unvaccinated’. 

Other studies reinforce this with a mitigating line which runs along the lines of; ‘but the vaccinated are less likely to contract the virus or get it in a lesser form’. Well, if they get it in a lesser form they… still are capable of transmission!

As I look at these reasons I am almost overcome by a grief… we want to vax our children, knowing it will be of little benefit to them as they are barely affected, it’s so that they don’t infect/harm us!’

Robert Hessel Strengers, Ocean Shores 

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  1. No Robert, get your facts right, that Lancet item is not a medical research study, i think it is just a non backed up opinion letter to editor of Lancet, which funny enough you did not mention.

    see https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/dec/09/facebook-posts/no-covid-19-vaccines-do-not-increase-transmission-/
    However, the “medical study” …..is an opinion letter published in The Lancet, written by Günter Kampf, a professor at the University of Greifswald’s Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine in Germany. That letter links to statistics from the Robert Koch Institute.

    The Lancet says on its website that it publishes correspondence from readers and that they “are not normally externally peer reviewed.”

    The Robert Koch Institute said on its website that “the extent to which the vaccination reduces the transmission of the virus cannot currently be precisely quantified,” but that “all in all, the risk that people will become PCR-positive despite vaccination and transmit the virus is significantly reduced.” It goes on to recommend booster shots due to the vaccines’ waning efficacy over time.

    The Koch Institute explains on its website that “a high number of active cases and a relatively high vaccination rate can therefore lead to an increase in the number of vaccination breakthroughs.”

    The Koch Institute said in a flier and in a Twitter thread that it’s misleading to talk of the percentage of breakthrough infections in a group without noting the fact that the vast majority of that population is vaccinated. Most of the cases and hospitalizations come from the unvaccinated population, the Twitter thread said.

    • Search… Doctors and Scientists Appeal to European Parliament To Reconsider The Covid-19 Policies Regarding Children.

      189 signatories.

      Sweden have also now decided not to vax kids. Benefits of the jab don’t out weigh the risks in their view as well.

      “vaccination breakthroughs”………like all of them…….. I think even Fauci has stopped using that term.

      Reality is what is starting to breakthrough for many.

  2. on further research it has been found Gunter’s article was, late last year , withdrawn / RETRACTED by Lancet –

    This article has been withdrawn: please see Elsevier Policy on Article Withdrawal (http://www.elsevier.com/locate/withdrawalpolicy).
    This article has been withdrawn at the request of the editor and publisher., Readers can read the policy and make up their own minds as to why…

  3. Thanks for voicing this Robert. Without getting into who said what or was discredited by whom in which medical journal…I think quite a few of us believe in our hearts as well as our minds that forcing vaccination on little kids is wrong and unnecessary.

    • Im getting rather tired of being told what I “know in my heart” quite apart from rather knowing it in my head. I don’t have to make this decision for a child but the parents of my grandchildren do. Granted the decision is more complex but it’s an extremely important one.

      Why not let the parents out there get their information from valid sources, weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision without these emotive sorts of claims being thrown at them.

      • Some may get tired of others with different opinions, to the point of bullying them….. but trust your judgement Jane.

        Sweden has decided against recommending COVID-19 vaccines for kids aged five to 11, the Health Agency says, arguing that the benefits do not outweigh the risks.

        “With the knowledge we have today, with a low risk for serious disease for kids, we don’t see any clear benefit with vaccinating them,” Health Agency official Britta Bjorkholm told a news conference on Thursday 27 Jan, 2022

        • So I’m a bully now Steve? Because I’m tired of being told what I think. I’ll add that to the list from the person who only ever plays the ball.

          I agree there are important aspects to be weighed in the risk/benefit equation for kids. I don’t have to make that decision for anyone so I’m happy to let those who do, make their call without my inexpert two bob’s worth.

          Just like it’s always possible to find one or two from the scientific community to support your stand – if you search hard enough or follow the right SM feed – you will find a jurisdiction that differs with as well. Is this really a knock-out blow? Do you not feel the need to balance this with the jurisdictions that support?

          • Off point again and more pointless assumptions Liz.

            A “knock-out blow”……….really? This is not a game or fight of opinions.

            Intelligent debate, without ridicule, name calling or point scoring is almost non-existent and therein lies one of the main problems with this issue.

            Solutions (plural) require proper debate. A one shoe, single solution might be good for some, but compromise via healthy debate helps to suit all. So far it’s my way (get jabbed) or the highway (no jab, no job), hence why we are here.

            The big difference I see is many pro-jabbers are so keen to prove they are right, they dismiss any counter points as miss-information.

            Only a few weeks ago, there were calls to silence Australian MP’s, who suggested we don’t jab kids, for spreading miss-information. And now we have the Swedish Government cancelling jabs for kids as the risk/benefit analyses does not add up in their view. Are we going to deport Swedish diplomats or refuse entry for same (ala Novak) for their “potential” to spread anti-jab sentiment…. would not surprise me, that’s how silly this has become.

            My 10 cents worth is not to score a point. I am trying to highlight the risk/benefit analysis of pricking the majority of healthy people and especially children with an experimental drug when the Covid virus risk is ridiculously low for this co-hort.

            The other big difference is that I’m hoping I am wrong.

            If any number of healthy people, moreover children heaven forbid (who typically suffer only mild Covid symptoms, if any) end up developing serious heart or other issues short or long term, it will be a travesty that has been built on the back of censorship, name calling, labels, deportation, odd new laws that appear to be drafted by big pharma, and anything else you can throw at alternative opinions (including Government approved medical apartheid & bully tactics), to try and discredit and crush any non-Govt/Pharma/MS media approved narrative whatsoever. And that ain’t cool, fair or rational.

            FYI on assumptions – I have never signed up to any social media (zip) and didn’t have to search for Swedish news to hear they are not recommending the jab for kids either. You can do better Liz.

          • Wrong end of the stick again! You seem to have arrived at the interpretation that offers you the best opportunity to climb to your favourite position on the high moral ground.

            I was not referring to a “knock-out” blow from you Steve. No it’s not a game. I was asking if one jurisdiction’s decision is sufficient to dismiss any counterbalance in the debate that parents/guardians may be seeking.

            As for pro jabbers, I don’t believe I have ever suggested that there are not a range of pros and cons to be considered and it is an individual’s choice. I have not been in the business of telling people what to do. If I see information dissemination that I believe is selective, inaccurate, unsupported by evidence or contrary to the conclusions of the bulk of the best working in the field I will explain my perceptions. The degree to which the world can be seduced by unregulated, unqualified commentary is truly way more frightening than the virus.

            Now tell me, do you really think it is desirable that those politicians to whom you refer use the position and resources they have to go peddling their inexpert ideas on such crucial matters? The government to which they are supposed to belong has a position, informed by ATAGI and their CMO and it is not unreasonable for the party to which they belong to ask them to either not undermine this or join the cross bench.

            I don’t think there is too much risk of Swedish diplomats being deported. Novak’s deportation had nothing to do with his views on vaccination. He held the same views presumably in 2021 when he arrived, won the tournament and departed without

            Look I’d believe you about your sources Steve if not for the incendiary, emotive rant of the second last paragraph which reflects all the language of the conspiracists and their ilk.

            Btw, you don’t know how many times I’ve hoped that your perceptions of the situation were right.

          • From the health.gov website, these are listed as the members of ATAGI.

            Voting members

            A/Prof Nigel Crawford
            Chair, Vaccine Safety, Special Risk Groups
            Director, Surveillance of Adverse Events Following Vaccination in the Community (SAEFVIC), Murdoch Children’s Research Institute
            Head Immunisation Services Royal Children’s Hospital, Melbourne
            Prof Michelle Giles
            Deputy Chair, Infectious Disease Physician, Maternal Immunisation
            Infectious Diseases Physician (Alfred Health, Monash Health, Royal Women’s Hospital, Sunshine Hospital)
            Adult Immunisation Physician (Alfred Health and Sunshine Hospital)
            Prof Christopher Blyth
            Co-Chair for ATAGI COVID‑19 Working group (until 31 December 2021), Paediatric Infectious Diseases, Clinical Microbiology
            Paediatrician Infectious Diseases Physician and Clinical Microbiologist, University of Western Australia, Telethon Kids Institute, Perth Children’s Hospital and PathWest Laboratory
            Prof Allen Cheng
            Co-Chair for ATAGI COVID‑19 Working group (until 31 December 2021), Epidemiology, Public Health
            Infectious Disease Physician and Director, Infection Prevention Healthcare Epidemiology Unit, Alfred Health
            Ms Karen Bellamy
            Paediatric, Adult and Maternal Immunisation, Vaccination Procedures
            Immunisation Nurse Practitioner, Immunisation, Research, COVID Vaccine Safety, Monash Health, SEPHU
            Prof Katie Flanagan
            Infectious Diseases
            Head of Infectious Diseases, Launceston General Hospital, Clinical Professor, University of Tasmania, Adjunct Professor, RMIT
            Adjunct Associate Professor, Monash University
            Dr Katherine Gibney
            Infectious Diseases Physician, Epidemiology
            Infectious Diseases Physician, Department of Infectious Diseases, The Austin Hospital
            NHMRC Early Career Fellow, The Peter Doherty Institute for Infection and Immunity
            Dr Penelope Burns
            General Practitioner
            Clinical Associate Professor, Australian National University

            Conjoint Senior Lecturer Western Sydney University
            Prof Cheryl Jones
            Head of School and Dean, Sydney Medical School Faculty of Medicine and Health, University of Sydney
            Adj. A/Prof Tony Korman
            Infectious Diseases, Microbiology
            Director, Monash Infectious Diseases and Microbiology, Monash Health
            A/Prof Bette Liu
            Epidemiology, Public Health
            Associate Professor and NHMRC Career Development Fellow, UNSW Sydney
            Dr Nicholas Silberstein
            General Practitioner
            General Practitioner, Victoria
            Dr James Wood
            Infectious Diseases Epidemiology, Population Health
            Associate Professor, School of Population Health, UNSW Sydney
            Ms Diane Walsh
            Consumer Health Issues
            Consumers Health Forum, Chair of Northern Territory, Primary Health Network
            Prof Tom Snelling
            Paediatrics and special risk groups
            Director of Health and Clinical Analysis, University of Sydney
            Infectious Diseases Physician, Sydney Children’s Hospital Foundation
            Ms Kristy Cooper
            Senior Nurse Practitioner
            Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander Representative

            Ex-officio members

            Mr Nicholas Stoney
            Representative from Department of Health
            Assistant Secretary, Immunisation Branch, Department of Health
            Dr Ting Lu
            Representative from the Therapeutic Goods Administration
            Office of Medicines Authorisation Market Authorisation Group, Therapeutic Goods Administration
            Prof Kristine Macartney
            National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS)
            Director, National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance
            Paediatrician and Infectious Diseases Specialist
            Dr Robyn Gibbs
            National Immunisation Committee (NIC)
            Manager, Immunisation Program, Department of Health, Western Australia
            Dr Louise Flood
            Communicable Diseases Network Australia (CDNA)
            Director, Communicable Disease Control Branch, Department for Health and Wellbeing, South Australia
            Prof. Andrew Wilson
            Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee (PBAC)
            Chair – Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee
            Ms Jo Watson
            Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee (PBAC)
            Deputy Chair – Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee

            Chief Medical Officer

            “ Professor Paul Kelly is a public health physician and epidemiologist with more than 30 years’ research experience. He has worked around the world in health system development and infectious disease epidemiology…

            “Paul has vast experience in infectious disease epidemiology, in particular influenza, pneumonia and tuberculosis. This will help us understand how coronavirus spreads through the community and what we can do to slow the spread.”

            The qualifications of our vocal pollies and those whose theories they are are pushing are?

    • A moot point I agree but I’ll have a go. A valid source of information for me would be someone with a long background of study, research and practice in a relevant specialist area – epidemiology, virology, vaccinology, immunology, genomics. Then there are the people with the more generalised qualifications to properly distill and synthesise the very technical nature of their findings etc.

      I have a certain degree of faith that these people, who have dedicated their lives to their endeavour, to be genuine in their objectivity and priority for the truth. I have faith in the peer review process and the rigours of scientific method as established in our universities and research institutions. There are no absolutes, I know there will be mistakes and differences and nuanced conclusions will be need to be weighed against each other.

      What I accord less validity is the wellness industry that seem to be able to operate according to a whole different regime of empiricism and onus of proof. Neither are they free of the profit imperatives they love to afford Big Pharma. I accord less validity to the odd disgruntled academic who has fallen out with their peers and is determined to regain relevance via YouTube.

      The least validity I accord to the absolutely scientifically illiterate who have been seduced by selective and/or alternative “facts” to feel suddenly special and empowered by belonging to a select group who, unlike the majority of the sheep around them can just “know” the truth. Constantly reinforced by tech company algorithms, they show the zeal of the newly converted to enlighten the rest of us. These are the sources I would suggest are the least helpful to those making complex and important health decisions.

  4. Don’t you just love those who refuse to believe in medical science, then try to prove their flaccid arguments are correct by trying to use references to medical science. As we have all been doing since birth, get vaxxed, stay vaxxed, protect yourself, your family, and your community.

  5. My daughter works in emergency and becomes very distressed when parents present unvaccinated sick children. For example meningococcal, if vaccinated child only needs a blood test if unvaccinated a very intrusive sample of spinal fluid.
    The other point is the concept of infection and illness. If vaccinated about 24 times less likely to be admitted to hospital if infected with Covid then if unvaccinated.


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